Think Bigger Series - Episode 15: Could the four-day working week be the future?

[00:00:04] Welcome to SRG's podcast, the Think Bigger Series. A business podcast aimed at tackling key issues around the workplace and inspiring positive change.

[00:00:14] This podcast is hosted by me, Jacob Midwinter, Sales and Client Solutions Director at SRG

[00:00:20] And me, Philippa Clark, Operations Manager for SRG's Southern Hub

[00:00:25] Hi and welcome to another episode of the Think Bigger Series. As usual I'm joined by my lovely colleague Philippa. Hi Philippa

[00:00:35] Hi

[00:00:36] How you doing?

[00:00:37] Yeah, not too bad. Looking forward to today's discussion

[00:00:40] Good, me too, me too

[00:00:42] And I'm really pleased to say that we have Mark Downs, Chief Executive of the Royal Society of Biology with us today

[00:00:49] So welcome Mark

[00:00:51] Hi, good to be here

[00:00:53] Really good to have you, really good to have you

[00:00:55] We're going to be talking today about the four day week

[00:00:58] A controversial subject, let's see how it goes

[00:01:01] Really looking forward to the discussion, but I must admit before Philippa introduced you to myself and the podcast

[00:01:10] Even though I've worked for 11 years in life sciences recruitment

[00:01:14] I don't think I'd heard of the Royal Society of Biology

[00:01:17] So it would be brilliant if you could just give us a quick overview of who the Royal Society of Biology are

[00:01:26] And then we can get into this four day week discussion

[00:01:30] Yeah sure, very happy to. So we are a learning society, a charity incorporated by Royal Charter

[00:01:37] I've been around since about 1950 in various forms

[00:01:40] And we're a membership organisation so we have about 17,000 individual members and they span the whole breadth of the biosciences

[00:01:48] So from molecular biochemistry, immunology, genetics, those sorts of things

[00:01:53] Through to whole organisms, plants and animals, through to ecosystems

[00:01:56] So complete spectrum. And with our membership we have teachers, we have students, we have Nobel laureates

[00:02:01] People in the research sector, people in the private and public

[00:02:04] So it's sort of everything you can think of really

[00:02:07] And we have people who a lot of people are doing research in universities

[00:02:11] But equally people aren't working in the water industry or environmental management and so on, forestry, agriculture

[00:02:17] So very broad and we provide professional services

[00:02:20] So you know, it's CPD, training, we provide networking activities

[00:02:25] We accredit biosciences degrees

[00:02:28] A whole host of policy work around presenting the biosciences voice to government across the United Kingdom

[00:02:36] And a little bit beyond them

[00:02:38] Often we work with chemistry and physics as a sort of tripartite

[00:02:41] View on things like science funding or big issues of the day like GM or something like that

[00:02:47] So in a nutshell that's who we are. We're based in London but we have staff around the country a little bit as well

[00:02:55] Brilliant, thank you very much for the overview

[00:02:58] So not busy then, pretty quiet

[00:03:00] Nice and quiet, yeah

[00:03:03] Yeah, exactly. Good as me, you do an awful lot

[00:03:06] So four day week

[00:03:08] I obviously know that you guys do operate that four day model

[00:03:13] For such a busy organisation with varying stakeholders, I'm really fascinated to get into this discussion

[00:03:20] So how did this all come around for you then Mark, this four day week?

[00:03:25] To be honest it was partly serendipitous

[00:03:28] So we've always been looking to find ways in which we can be an attractive employer and retain staff

[00:03:36] And give people a good balance between life at home and life at work

[00:03:41] While still doing sort of the day job

[00:03:44] And I think the pandemic I guess as with many organisations brought things into focus and made us think about things differently

[00:03:51] You know, although we've always done a little bit of remote working then suddenly, all of a sudden of course we're all working at home

[00:03:58] And I think that made us think about how we might do things differently

[00:04:01] We were looking at ways to attract and retain staff in particular and things might be different

[00:04:07] I came across a national pilot and it seemed to me that a national pilot for the four day week was an ideal opportunity to try something, see if it worked

[00:04:18] And to do it in the company of other organisations so that we could learn from each other

[00:04:23] And feel that we had company along the journey as it were

[00:04:26] So slightly serendipitous but against the backdrop of trying to be a good and innovative employer actually

[00:04:33] Okay, so you talk about trying to be that innovative employer and talk about attractive employer, work-life balance, attract and retain staff

[00:04:43] Is it working?

[00:04:45] I think it's worked fantastically well, if honestly the feedback we've had from the team has been good, the external feedback has been positive

[00:04:54] And so for us, I think it's been a real winner

[00:04:59] We'll withhold judgement for a little bit of time because I think it's sensible to continue to review it

[00:05:05] I mean, we ran the pilot for six months and that finished at the end of December 22

[00:05:10] So we're still in relatively early days of the first full year

[00:05:15] And we will review it later in the year to sort of take a view on whether it is working for us

[00:05:20] But all the signs at the moment are very positive

[00:05:23] And that probably comes down to the fact that the models fits and suits our circumstances

[00:05:28] And perhaps that's something we can come on to because I don't think there is a one model fits all

[00:05:33] Okay, interesting, interesting

[00:05:35] Philippa just to bring you in on the conversation, what are your thoughts?

[00:05:38] Just hearing about the trial four day week before we get really deep into it, initial thoughts?

[00:05:44] I think my initial thoughts is I'm very pro change

[00:05:48] You know, if we revert back to the pandemic, we've learnt so much about how we can work in a different way

[00:05:53] Through hybrid working flexibility

[00:05:56] And I've got personal experience of working a four day week, which I did for a few years with my children

[00:06:01] We're younger, so I'm quite pro four day week if it's done correctly and implemented correctly

[00:06:09] So yes, I'm very sort of pro change

[00:06:12] I've got a few bits of data here. So doing my research, I was having a little snoop around

[00:06:19] And absolutely like I think the main sort of points and data points that are getting looked at are that work-life balance

[00:06:25] And retention staff and then there's an independent research organisation called autonomy

[00:06:30] That were quoted by this online publication called The Week

[00:06:34] And the Week where a worker has a child under the age of two, a saving 1,440 pounds on average on childcare per year

[00:06:45] And an individual who is commuting to work is saving 340 pounds on average per year working on a four day week

[00:06:54] So we've got those cost savings

[00:06:57] The other main kind of data point that I picked up on was through the trial and I'm sure you're aware of this Mark

[00:07:05] 95% of companies that were involved say that their productivity was either equal to prior or was increased throughout the trial

[00:07:18] And in 2019 my last bit of data for you, but it all sort of trends the same was that Microsoft in Japan

[00:07:27] They saw an increase of just shy of 40%, 39.9% to be precise

[00:07:32] A productivity increasing over a period of five weeks where they gave everybody Friday after five weeks

[00:07:39] So productivity on the rise, people saving money

[00:07:43] Hurrah! I'm a little bit more skeptical on it

[00:07:48] But interested to know if you've seen similar things over the past year

[00:07:52] Yes, so productivity is an interesting one because I think if you're making widgets you can count them and you can see how many come out and so on

[00:08:00] And you get the unit cost for the sort of works that we do where we're providing services

[00:08:06] And we do a lot of policy work

[00:08:09] Obviously measuring productivity is more challenging and it is generally for all organisations of our nature

[00:08:15] So we have to use surrogates to a large extent to see how we think we're performing

[00:08:21] And those things range from staff surveys through to sickness days, through to external surveys of the service provision and so on

[00:08:30] And on that basis we've seen improvements across the board and I think at the very least I can say that productivity hasn't decreased

[00:08:39] And our sense is it's higher

[00:08:42] Okay, I guess the cost element, I don't know if that's something that people have said to you, have a lot more money enjoying not commuting for five days?

[00:08:49] I think that it's quite difficult sometimes, well certainly in our circumstances to disaggregate the impact of remote working from the four-day week

[00:09:00] Because we offer both and so we have a lot of staff are remote working a good chunk of their time as well as having the four-day week option

[00:09:10] And if I'm honest it's slightly difficult to disaggregate them but certainly the net benefit has been very significant to us

[00:09:19] Okay, interesting

[00:09:21] So for me when I look at it I think about the why and I fully agree with all the reasons

[00:09:27] I don't agree with a four-day week through my research and my initial comments but we'll see how I feel at the end of this because maybe you're convinced you are

[00:09:35] I'll try

[00:09:37] Yeah, exactly. So for me fully agree work-life balance 100% I think I've actually got fantastic work-life balance now I dropped my children off in the morning

[00:09:47] For school I come back I log on I work five days a week but I'll go to the gym at lunch sometimes

[00:09:54] I'll take the dose for a longer walk some days than others if I've got a little bit of a gap

[00:09:59] Members of my team will have appointments they'll attend without having to even you know just let us know that they're offline for a little bit

[00:10:05] There's a flexibility there's an autonomy and they're able to make their work week work for them

[00:10:11] Rather than having a prescribed you're working five days or four days

[00:10:16] So I feel that actually providing true autonomy giving people the ability to really make their working week work for them

[00:10:25] Without the pressure of feeling that their login times are being monitored or what have you

[00:10:30] Has the same benefit and actually maybe more of a benefit because there's more of a trust extended to them

[00:10:35] Rather than saying hey guess what we're really looking after you you're only going to have to work four days now

[00:10:41] Yeah, well it's interesting I think if you were working here you'd definitely be on board with the four day week

[00:10:47] Because I think all you've just described is the way we operate so staff at the moment they don't log on they don't log off

[00:10:55] They don't need to get the kids up they do if they need to as you say drop off line for a few minutes to do something

[00:11:00] They can do it's a really high trust environment and the way we've implemented is it's very much part of flexible working

[00:11:07] So the four day week first of all is not compulsory it's entirely optional so in your scenario if you're happy with that balance

[00:11:14] Doing five days and things you have described then absolutely you can carry on doing that there's no problem with that

[00:11:19] It's another type of flexibility which is overlaid on that to say actually if it would be helpful for you to structure your days in this way

[00:11:30] Then we will let you do it as an employer but if you don't want to do that then that's absolutely fine

[00:11:35] Okay okay Philip what are your thoughts?

[00:11:37] I think from my perspective and thought processes is I think back to those bank holiday weekends so we all live for bank holiday weekends

[00:11:44] You think great I've got that extra day off you've got that three-day weekend and I generally always come back to work feeling that bit more refreshed

[00:11:52] Recharged why I'm sort of so pro the four day week or variations of that because as Mark said it's about giving people the choice and that flexibility

[00:12:02] But I think one of the key benefits of the four day week is you know we're seeing high levels of stress burn out this can impact people's mental health

[00:12:11] Their physical well-being and I think in enabling people to have that whole day where they're not working and they're not required to do anything

[00:12:20] It gives them that time away from their job it allows people to have that time off to mentally check out from their job and to me that's a good thing

[00:12:29] And as somebody that's personally worked four days a week I mean if I'm being really honest there was things I didn't do well

[00:12:36] Sometimes I've log on on my day off but I think that was more me getting used to the four day week and I was doing it very much in isolation away from my team

[00:12:44] But I imagine if I was working in a team where that was the culture and everyone was doing four day a week you know it's about managing your time

[00:12:51] And as I navigated my way through some of those initial challenges I became really savvy with my time I was really streamlined

[00:12:59] And I think productivity was the best it ever had been because I knew I only had the four days to achieve what I would normally do in five days

[00:13:06] And it really made me recognise that some of the things I would normally do I didn't really need to be doing them or there'd be meetings I'd get involved with

[00:13:13] That actually I didn't need to be involved with and I actually found my productivity was fantastic and I felt so much more energised when I came back into work after those three days

[00:13:23] So yeah that's my personal experience and I definitely think there's some really I think the cost saving is great but for me the real benefit is that mental wellbeing and reducing stress and burnout

[00:13:38] Because you know mental health is so so important

[00:13:41] I'm sure yeah I mean I'm sure that's absolutely right I think we find the mental health point really valuable in terms of helping staff

[00:13:50] I think it comes back to the way in which you operate the four day week is so important and it might be useful for me to talk through a little bit about how we operate it

[00:13:59] Because it does vary tremendously and you know it isn't a one size fits all but the way in which we implement it can obviously make a big difference

[00:14:08] I mean as you alluded to Jack I mean I think if you're really strict about it and say you have to do this and you have to do that then it does become less valuable

[00:14:16] Yeah I do I was talking to a business the other day they operate a four day week everyone is off on a Friday

[00:14:23] Right

[00:14:24] And just touching upon two comments then and I would love you to then go on and talk about how you've implemented it and how it's structured because a few things pop up for me

[00:14:32] Mark one of you said about structuring your week works for you you can do it in four days I guess for me it's about management of a team and trying to bring people together

[00:14:42] Let's say you've got a team of okay really simply will choose five people and you've got a team of five and each one of them has a different day off that week

[00:14:52] You're never going to have all your people together that collaboration piece there's a feeling as part of the team which again was another piece of mine that was in my mind where I was a little bit like

[00:15:03] A little bit concerned about this

[00:15:05] But I think if you're smart Jacob you know to me that's no different to the challenges of people working at hybrid week you're going to have some people at home and some people in the office

[00:15:14] And I think if you're going to implement a four day week or a variation of that you know you need to have really effective planning I think where it's you know there's been some excellent trials in Iceland, Belgium

[00:15:25] And New Zealand and I think what's worked really well with those examples was the planning and the trials that went into it similar to what Mark's discussing I think it's about trying things and seeing what works for your business and what doesn't work for your business

[00:15:38] But that whole collaboration and people piece I would say is no more of a challenge than we would have with hybrid working

[00:15:45] You mean you've been working remotely or working in the office

[00:15:47] Yeah yeah definitely

[00:15:49] You can still jump on a teams you can still jump on a teams court you can still you know communicate digitally we live in a world that businesses sort of 24 7 to a degree there's always a customer or client somewhere in the world that needs something

[00:16:01] But you can all jump on your laptop you can all see each other you know one of the things that my guys enjoy is we all work remotely so we're all based throughout the UK in offices or at home and we jump on a call on a Friday

[00:16:13] And have a bit of a catch up some people have a drink in hand others don't wrap up the week it feels as though there's a coming together celebrating the week and stuff and you know if there were team members that were missing out on that you think okay how are they feeling are they feeling isolated but Mark how are you doing

[00:16:31] I think we're conscious of the collaboration issue as well and so we've tried to sort of pitch it with a sort of mix of some requirements and as much flexibility as possible. So I think the first thing to say is that we were working at 35 hour week beforehand.

[00:16:47] And we haven't dropped down to 28 hour week we've gone to a 32 hour week. So that amount of time that staff are losing stroke having to make up is three hours a week.

[00:17:01] And so we've shifted to four days of eight hours each working which is slightly longer but I don't think it's excessive as in the sort of 10 hours that you described.

[00:17:11] And in terms of people coming together and ensuring this collaboration and those sorts of things, we've basically given people the option of their non work today either a Monday or a Friday.

[00:17:22] And we devolved it down to individual teams so that the individual teams decide what they do and we are open five days a week still.

[00:17:32] And for things like our membership for example and other things or finance team or so on, you know we use collective, you know, group emails hunt groups on telephones so it's sort of a membership at and finance and so on.

[00:17:43] So that you know different team members can pick up different things for those sorts of things. And then what happens is the teams decide in terms of their workload what to do, and actually it evens out pretty much with about half off on a Monday about half off on a Friday.

[00:18:01] And that's thrown up an unexpected benefit which is that the day in which you are working on the Monday or the Friday about a lot of your colleagues are not working tends to be a lot quieter so the email traffic drops, the press for internal meetings drops.

[00:18:16] So as a result of that, actually you end up using your time a bit like you used to do I mean before before the pandemic. I think most people used to have the odd day working at home or when they worked at home.

[00:18:28] They'd have their telephone off or they'd have it on and tell people not to call them and they concentrate on doing a bit of work they need to write a report or get something done.

[00:18:36] You know post you know, following the pandemic that'll went out of the window and everyone's doing everything at home. But what this is actually how to do is partly revert to that so you have a day where you are more focused and can do more things because there's less demand on you internally.

[00:18:51] It does mean on the other side that the Tuesday Wednesday Thursday are busier and there's more to fit in. But I don't think most people mind that because they recognize the benefit they're getting as a result of adopting that type of model.

[00:19:07] And I suppose it's entirely flexible so you're not forced to do it if you don't wish to have this particular type of flexibility then you don't do that.

[00:19:17] And the final thing I'd say in initial description is that it's non contractual. Now that throws up some issues potentially, but I think for us it works quite well.

[00:19:29] And so that sort of comes back to Philippa's point about working and getting the sort of balance right between different types of work and sometimes doing a bit of work on the day should not be working.

[00:19:42] Now the culture is very much not to do that, but everybody understands that they're paid to five days a week so that if in their circumstances they have to work a few hours on the day they would normally work or if they have to work on that day occasionally then they will do that.

[00:19:59] Just as occasionally people have to go to functions in the evening or something at the weekend it's exactly the same principle but the culture is very much to try to avoid that.

[00:20:08] And that's been working well and we just let people have the responsibility to manage their time.

[00:20:14] You know, making sure we're not trying to place demands on folk to do things which would mean it would make it difficult for them to be able to have that flexibility.

[00:20:23] So that's where we are.

[00:20:26] Okay, so it's a lot of thought very complex.

[00:20:31] But listening to it and just digesting it I fully appreciate it one thing that just stood out for me was those that are off on the Monday, those that are off on the front on the Friday.

[00:20:43] Everyone else is in on those three days so that's your collaboration day so it is prescriptive to a certain degree but it's not specified one day, so to speak.

[00:20:54] Makes sense.

[00:20:55] I think I summarise it right.

[00:20:57] Yeah, that's absolutely right but also you know different for different teams it's easier or more difficult depending on the time of year and circumstances.

[00:21:05] So for example we have an events team we run events around the UK for the public for other organizations all that sort of thing.

[00:21:13] And if you're in the events team and you know there is an event on the day you're not working which is a Friday or Monday, you may need to go to it and that's just the way the cookie crumbles and I think everyone accepts that's the case so you if there was an

[00:21:27] event that you need to have a collaborative day on the Friday or Monday then it would happen. It's just really that we're trying to avoid doing that as far as possible.

[00:21:35] And would they then flip their day somewhere else then? So would they then be right I've got to work on that Monday, therefore we're all off on a Tuesday or whatever it may be or a Wednesday.

[00:21:44] Yeah so what we've worked that so far is to try to get people to swap a day within a week if they really had to.

[00:21:52] So you know if you normally have Friday off and you have to work on the Friday then you know you switch to having the Monday off but do it within the week where it's possible and we don't carry over days like toil for example.

[00:22:05] Otherwise I think it becomes very complicated and builds up but that seems to be working quite well at the moment.

[00:22:13] Okay good stuff. Philippa, what are your thoughts?

[00:22:16] I think you know I think what we're learning here is that there's not one size fits all I think as Mark said earlier in the discussion and it's about looking every business is unique and I think it's about looking at your individual business and understanding what works for your business.

[00:22:31] And I think a really good starting point for any companies out there that are considering this is speaking to your employees first and foremost you know what do they want what would work for them.

[00:22:40] Absolutely yeah.

[00:22:41] I think flexibility breeds flexibility back you know one of the reasons I've stayed at SRG for so long is because of the flexibility they've shown me and I was allowed to work four days a week for quite a few years which allowed me to spend more time with my children.

[00:22:55] My husband had the same because the big thing that I've noticed from this study is that it's allowed a lot more male parents and carers to spend time with children which often they don't statistically are able to do because they're often working five day weeks and getting burnt out

[00:23:12] and they're not been able to spend quality time with their children.

[00:23:15] For me there's going to be sacrifices either way you know there will be some sacrifices for working a four day week but I think the benefits that people get as a result of that in my opinion far outweigh but it's just looking at your individual company and looking at what works for you.

[00:23:30] And I think that's here and I think communication it's how you communicate it with your employees and also learn what's important for them and get that feedback from them so it feels like it's a joint decision.

[00:23:41] That's right that sort of bottom up approach is really important it's certainly the way we've approached it in terms of what works for you, what creates an issue and let's have a think about it.

[00:23:51] And during the pilot there were issues which came up once somebody would say what should I do about this to which the answer is well how would you like to solve the problem that works for you and the team and let me know what you think would work.

[00:24:04] And you know almost always that's that solution is the best way forward and people have found how to do that.

[00:24:11] And I have a real sense you know when I do meet the teams now walking in the office or online or whatever but there's a bit of a buzz a bit more than you know real sort of enthusiasm and you can see the positive impact it's had on people's wellbeing and how they are valuing that extra time.

[00:24:27] I hear you but how have your external stakeholders reacted?

[00:24:32] They've reacted very positively and again I think it comes down to circumstance but I don't think what you're describing is any difference of the way you'd need to handle annual leave or sickness.

[00:24:44] And you know just having that positive open communication channel with your customers clients is the way to go forward.

[00:24:53] And we have said to people we gave on members and we have 85 member organisations in different parts of the biosciences as well as the individual members and other interlocutors and so on.

[00:25:03] And if they need to speak to someone as a particular day and they normally do then they still can do because by and large we cross cover in teams just in the same way as we would for sickness and for annual leave and that seems to work quite well.

[00:25:19] So there's nothing negative. Have you heard of bore out?

[00:25:24] I don't think I have but I can imagine what it is.

[00:25:28] Yeah it's people being bored at work and that depression, anxiety, stress, insomnia all relates to a higher turnover of staff.

[00:25:37] Yes.

[00:25:38] Therefore if we're compressing a working week into four days individuals are going to be more busy they're naturally going to be talking with their colleagues more on those days as you talked about Mark.

[00:25:48] So actually I can't believe this but I'm actually giving an argument here in the four day week box.

[00:25:54] I knew it.

[00:25:55] But yeah exactly but I can see how actually a four day week would decrease not just burnout but you would surely decrease bore out as well.

[00:26:05] But I think a lot of that, I mean there may be with those individuals challenges with their job or they don't feel fulfilled or challenged which is almost I guess a separate discussion to the four day week.

[00:26:17] But I think also a lot of it is when people feel burnt out they're doing a really long five day week.

[00:26:22] They don't get that creative outlet whether that be hobbies or interest they have outside of work or as we said earlier they generally just are spending their weekends often doing life admin they're not really doing what they probably love away from work and then before they know it they're back at work on Monday so I think that kind of lends itself I think a lot of the candidates I speak to.

[00:26:44] It's not they're calling us and saying we want a four day week they're just wanting that flexibility they're wanting the opportunity to do things away from work that they're really passionate about that often they stop doing and I think that then lends itself to that burnout that bore out because they're not getting that creative outlet.

[00:27:01] Yeah, so sure it comes down to the sort of buckets your life buckets and having making sure that they're all all filled up and I guess having a four day week will enable you to have those interests hobbies filled up times family filled up because all of a sudden your Saturday is spent with your children if you have children or your partner or whatever it may be because

[00:27:21] you've been able to do something else on that other day so okay maybe I'm maybe I'm converting a little bit it's not as prescriptive as I think I thought it was having spoken to a few companies and speaking to what you've done Mark is actually really quite interesting.

[00:27:35] So how we sort of summarise his podcast is really looking at takeaways. Obviously we cover quite a lot on these discussions sort of bit round Robin here just sort of what you want our listeners to take away from this discussion.

[00:27:48] Mark would you like to would you like to go first what kind of your key takeaways from I suppose the key takeaway is that like most things if you engage your staff and teams in the beginning and you try to develop something around what works for them and understand what doesn't doesn't

[00:28:04] doesn't work you're going to end up in a much better place. And also I think just to say that it's worth trying these things because if you don't try them you know you won't know.

[00:28:16] So I was just really pleased to have the pilot to force us sort of you know into doing this to try it out but the bottom approach for me has been the most important.

[00:28:26] Okay brilliant. Good stuff.

[00:28:28] Yeah I think the take home to me is very much avoid this one size fits all approach that there's different ways you can cut this up and it's how it works for your business.

[00:28:38] And I think we need to remove a little bit of the stigma that comes with the four day week this isn't about people wanting to do less work it's about people wanting to work smartly and and avoid that burnout and improve their well being which I think can only be a good thing.

[00:28:52] Okay good stuff. And then me, me the one who's not for four day weeks.

[00:28:58] You know what, for me my biggest takeaway is it isn't what I thought it was necessarily was. It's not just like we're all off on a Friday or we're all off on a Monday.

[00:29:07] Because for me that comes up with so many issues around as I said, team management culture etc etc.

[00:29:14] So that's my big takeaway is actually you can implement this as you have done in a very flexible way that actually will mitigate all of those risks to a business both internally and externally.

[00:29:27] The second point however is one that I think we're going to see longer term. Obviously if you give people a four day week or all of a sudden you implement something new, you're going to see a spike in productivity you're going to see a spike in engagement.

[00:29:40] And Mark I'll be really interested to catch up with you like you say after you've done your review after a little bit longer period to see how it is still going because with anything be an additional day's holiday or whatever it may be you're going to see those spikes.

[00:29:56] So it'd be interesting to see is it just short term gain, or actually if we uncovered something really meaningful and by we I mean the working world that is moving.

[00:30:05] Absolutely.

[00:30:07] Well Mark it's been an absolute pleasure. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation as well.

[00:30:11] I have very much. That's great. Thank you all very much.