Inside Ukraine's Drone War: Maj. "Phoenix" of Lasar's Group

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_00] I create our first drone, I create first ISR plane. So, this Killzone create War of Drones, not War of Humans. Drones try to hit other drones. That's better than humans. Yes, yes, it helps us to save a human life. If I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human, it's enemy. And they are in our land. It's the future for ground warfare. I think it's the future of big drones and many big planes. And drawn is the future.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_03] And why don't you introduce yourself to listeners? Some of your background, what you were doing before the war,

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_00] how you got involved in that. My name is Yuri. My co-sign is Phoenix. I'm a major of National Guard of Ukraine, of Lazarus Group. And what were you doing before the war? I have my own IT business.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_01] Oh, okay, great.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00] From 1991, I started to work with computers and network technologies. And before war, I have my own IT company. I provide services for my customers. It was cloud service, virtualization, cyber security, computer networks, and so on.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Were you involved at all in AI before the war?

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00] Not AI, just modern network and computer technologies. Right. So all that related to computer networks, VPN, Thanos, and maybe some electronic devices, it's my direction. Yeah. I'm familiar with all of this. I know how it works, how I can use it, how I can combine different devices to some

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_00] some big projects, how to get results, what I want. Then how did you join Lazarus Group? From the first days of full-scale invasion, I understand that I need to protect my country, to protect my city, to protect civilians from all of this. And I spent two days to move my family far away in safe place.

[00:02:25] [SPEAKER_00] And after that, I returned to Kyiv. From maybe first day, I joined to a local defense. And start my night shifts on the nearest fortification. And I was like, I'm sure you're going to go to Kyiv. Right. When they were coming in from Belarus?

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yes, yes. Did you know him before? No, no. I had experience operating drones. In 2010, I built my first drone to inspect buildings. At that time, I had one of the customers.

[00:03:21] [SPEAKER_00] And I supported them by video surveillance systems, security systems and computer networks. And I needed to inspect all these buildings from there. So I built my first drone with GoPro camera to fly over this building and control

[00:03:44] [SPEAKER_00] cable systems and roof and all technical devices that are located on these buildings. I see. So when war started, I understand what we need to use modern technologies, maybe drones to fly and destroy our enemy remotely.

[00:04:08] [SPEAKER_03] Lazarus Group was the first to use drones. Is that right? As a weapon. I mean, before that, there was reconnaissance drones.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. But can you talk about when the decision was to arm the drones? And was that Lazarus Group that did that first? Or were there other units in the field that were experimenting?

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_00] We get a first, I think our drone was the first real weapon that can destroy enemy vehicles. And we show this result for everyone. And after that, I think our units start using drones as a weapon. And our military understand that drone is a real weapon.

[00:04:59] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Because the first time people saw this was when the Russians were on the road from Belarus, I think. And there was a long convoy that was stopped. And then you started sending drones to destroy the tanks.

[00:05:23] [SPEAKER_00] Was that Lazarus Group? No. At that time we have no drones at all. And only ISR drones, small drones like a Mavic DJI. We are the units who have such drones, use this type of drones for reconnaissance only. Only.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_00] At that time we have no devices that can damage tanks or other vehicles. Yeah.

[00:05:54] [SPEAKER_03] I thought, I remember seeing tanks being hit in that convoy. But was that from drones or was that something else? No. Our special forces do that. I see. Okay. When was, where was the first use of drones as a weapon?

[00:06:13] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe it was May 22, our first missions, successful missions where we can hit some targets. And what sector was that? It was the Aparagia direction.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_03] And what was the first technology? I remember reading that Lazarus developed a drop system.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00] Our main idea, the main idea of our commander was operate remotely and destroy enemy vehicle. So, like a tank or armored vehicle or anti-aercraft system. All types of enemy vehicles that can damage our military position. So, we started to develop this project.

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_00] How to do it remotely. And the main idea to use a satellite connection. So, we get our first Stirling and try to do some devices and try to create some software that can use this Stirling with big drones, big quadcopters.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_03] Okay. But the progression was you started modifying DJI drones? No. No.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_03] They were from the beginning, a home Ukrainian build.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00] We create a technology how we can interconnect Stirling with, generally speaking, a flight controller inside big agricultural drone. After that, we want to find, to manufacture big frames, big drones, agriculture, and ask to

[00:08:16] [SPEAKER_00] install our special devices with Stirling on this drone to get ability to operate, to operate manually. And we spend maybe more than four months to create a first prototype of this drone.

[00:08:37] [SPEAKER_00] After that, they start using this drone on the battlefield and try to do our first flights to destroy our first targets.

[00:08:51] [SPEAKER_03] So, I thought, so you were using Stirling beginning in 2022? Yes. A lot of the FPV drones, Kamikaze drones, are using radio link to the controller. Weren't you also using this radio link in some of the drones?

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_03] Or is Lazarus specifically focused on satellite links?

[00:09:23] [SPEAKER_00] We focused on satellite links because we understand that we have a lot of opportunities when we use satellite link. There is no limitation by landscape. We can fly far away in low altitude as far as we can. And only one limitation is battery capacity.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:09:47] [SPEAKER_00] And we understand that drone that was very popular at that time can bring only one munition with small munition. It's not enough to damage vehicle such as that. So, we understand that we need to invent some device that can bring about five kilos of payload,

[00:10:13] [SPEAKER_00] not less than three units of this munition. And we understand that our primary targets is tanks, maybe artillery or other enemy vehicles that can create a big damage for us.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_00] And we start work on direction that help us to increase range and some software upgrades that help our pilots to fly easy and control our drone in any situation when we have jamming or without GNSS. So, we start flying manually.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00] Only what we need is a connection to our drone to get a picture from our camera and control. So, our third step is that it was only one pilot for one drone. And after that, our pilot crew consists of two persons. It's a pilot and navigator. Navigator always know where our drone is located because

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00] the navigator looks at the camera compared with satellite maps or other information. And using landmarks, always know where we are and help pilot to correct direction of flying and help them to find this target that we need. And help while pilots start aiming.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00] So, it controls the wind direction, wind speed and help to maybe calculate this position when we start to do our first drop.

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_03] So, okay. Maybe for my audience, you can explain the different kinds of drones. There's FPV drones, which are... The pilot is looking through the camera of the drone, right? Then there are interceptor drones to knock down other drones or aircraft.

[00:12:47] [SPEAKER_03] And there are kamikaze drones, which have a warhead in them, have ammunition in them and fly into a target. That can be a kamikaze drone, right?

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_00] I mean, that can be an FPV drone. Yes, FPV drone is a separate direction because it's very small and cheap. And I think the main goal of FPV drones is to destroy small target, not armored target and enemy personnel. Right. It's the best for these tasks. And this drone can fly for short distance. It's about maybe from 10 to maybe 20 kilometers.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00] So FPV drone helps us to control first part of frontline, nearest area and protect from enemy personnel and not armored vehicle. So like cars, like maybe fuel tanks and so on. And fortified position of our enemy.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00] Next step is heavy bombers that can fly far away and destroy enemy vehicle, enemy fortified position, enemy personnel and everything that they can find on a long distance. And kamikaze drone. Kamikaze drone flies for longer distance.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00] It's about 70, maybe up to 100 kilometers and can destroy any targets that they can find in that area. So I think the most important in all of this is ISR drones because they control this area. They can find targets and control of movement of this target before we can fly to that position to destroy this target.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_00] So I'm sorry, ISR means? ISR. It's mostly it's a plane with gimbal camera with zoom. IsR. And ISR drone main idea. They try to find our targeted control area, analyze pictures and try to remain tasks of this drone.

[00:15:20] [SPEAKER_00] So they fly and control a special area where we can use our drones to destroy targets. Yes. The main idea is that they need to find targets. But you started with the heavy bombers, is that what you're saying?

[00:15:42] [SPEAKER_03] When did you start developing the armed FPV drones?

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_00] First step is developing of heavy bombers for a Starlink. And after that, when we have maybe more than 10 bombers and we start fly simultaneously on different directions, from different positions from our front line, we understand that we need more targets. We need more information about targets because we can do more.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_00] We can destroy more targets. Only limitation for that time, it's information about our enemy, enemy position and location of this target. So we start to develop direction of ISR drones. Our first ISR drone was a plane, a tall plane with camera. No, with photo, photo camera.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_00] And we fly along area of interest. And after that, we get these pictures and try to find some enemy targets on these pictures. After that, we start to develop this direction and create planes with video camera.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_00] So we start new, we create a new step because we have online connection to this camera and can control area of interest in real time. If we need to, if we understand what we have some target signature, we can zoom in this area and

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_00] understand what is this, is this tank or is this armored vehicle or any different type of target. So after that, we can create a ISR unit inside our... After that, they started develop the subunit of ISR drones

[00:17:58] [SPEAKER_00] and get more ISR planes and that place start flying along all front line. So the next step was increasing the number of crews.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_00] So every 10 kilometers now we have our ground crew with big bombers and every 20 kilometers, we have a crew of ISR planes, ISR drones.

[00:18:44] [SPEAKER_00] So this is a drone's cover area up to 70 kilometers from borderline and our big bombers can fly up to 35 kilometers and they come back for a lot.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_00] So we have a special designed model that can fly one-way mission and distance of this flight is up to 65 kilometers.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_03] What people in the West are most familiar with are the FPVs. Did you then develop FPVs or was that somebody else that developed the FPVs?

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_00] So all devices that we use, we developed. So we create a technical specification for manufacturers, send them this information and create an engineering team and together we work on the development of these devices.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00] So after using in real battle conditions, we give feedback for engineers, for manufacturers and ask them to do some changes if we need. And after that together we examine the results, they analyze maybe some technical information, telemetry logs

[00:20:17] [SPEAKER_00] and so on to understand how we can upgrade our drones, what we can do to fly on bigger distance or how we can help our pilots to be more effective, how to do the aiming process more simple.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_00] So now we have special design software that can help our pilots to hit targets when they move.

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_03] When did you start using these smaller drones that are armed?

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00] As I mentioned before, our main goal is armored vehicle. So maybe one year ago, maybe two years ago, we started using FPVs because we understand that using big expensive drones to hit enemy personnel, it's not good. Right. It's not effective.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00] So we started using FPVs to destroy all that we can find in maybe first 10 kilometers from the front line.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_03] In your arsenal today, is it mostly heavy bombers? Is it mostly FPV? Is it mostly ISR? Is it, I mean, are you, where are you standing in that? How do you divide up your resources?

[00:21:53] [SPEAKER_00] Now we use a different type of drones. This drone can cover distance from maybe 10 kilometers up to 65 or 70 kilometers. So first of all, it's FPV. It's the first part of frontline. Maybe first, now we're using fiber optics so we can fly up to maybe 30 kilometers.

[00:22:18] [SPEAKER_00] So FPV cover first part of this area and mostly hit enemy personnel.

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01] Right.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_00] After that, other part of this area covered by heavy bombers up to 65 kilometers. All this area controls by ISR planes. It helps us to search target, confirm destroying of this target and control all this area.

[00:22:49] [SPEAKER_00] So we have interceptors that control area near our takeoff point to protect our crews and the enemy ISR drones.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_00] And also we use kamikaze drones to strike different targets on distance near 70 kilometers.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_03] And also we use kamikaze drones to strike different targets on distance near 70 kilometers. And then the other countries that Russia has been using do not have very precise onboard targeting. And so they're given our target area and then they hit the area but there's no, this is what I understand, no feedback to the controller. Is that right? I mean,

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_03] how did the Shahids work? And in the interceptors on the front lines where you have these units based, are they... What kind of interceptors are they? Are they FPV? Are they autonomous targeting? Or how does that work?

[00:24:23] [SPEAKER_00] Interceptors for Shahid is different type of drones because they need to fly on very high speed. Yeah. So, interception of Shahid is different. It's not related to tasks on the front lines. Yeah. So, we have special design drones to intercept Shahid. And we have experience how to do this.

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_00] Now, we increase the number of crews who work in this direction. Incoming drones,

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_03] targeting Kyiv, for example, that you're still using... Or you, the military, the Ukrainian military, is still using human controlled machine guns to try and knock down those drones. That seems like a very

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_00] difficult problem. No, we use all available devices and all opportunities how to intercept Shahid. Yeah. Do you know anything about... Drones and machine guns and ground crews, everything that we can do.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Do you... Are you familiar with Eric Schmidt's Swift speed?

[00:25:42] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. I know about this project, but it's a different topic.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Meaning it's too sensitive to talk about or it's...

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_00] No, we talk about lasers. I know many interesting information about other units, other technologies, other devices, but I don't want to discuss this now.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_03] And I was asking, so you have the heavy bombers interspersed with ISR. You have interceptor drones around your units and then you have FPV. Are the FPV together with the heavy bombers or are they spaced along?

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00] It's a separate subunits, so it's a separate direction. We have a different direction and we use different type of drones for these tasks.

[00:26:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And all of these drones to date are controlled through a screen. There's no autonomous targeting yet. Is there in the Lazar Group arsenal? Or do you have autonomous targeting or even autonomous navigation?

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_00] Now we use manual control, remote control mostly. Big bombers controlled remotely. It helps our pilot be more efficient. They allocate it and... In a quiet situation. They can concentrate on aiming, on flying. They don't need to think about their safety.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00] Right. It's more resultative. And other benefits that one pilot can control drones in different directions if we need. So I think it's best what we can do.

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. But I've talked to a lot of people who are developing AI navigation and AI targeting. I mean, the future is you send off a hundred drones. They know where they're going. They have an onboard navigation.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_03] They have a camera with object recognition and they recognize the target. This is all autonomously and destroy the target. And you're not there yet. Is that right?

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00] Now we try to use manual control because in any condition we know that we get result. Because all AI devices that help us to create this autonomous flight group of our drones.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_00] Now it's... I think it's not enough. The quality of these devices in the middle. So sometimes we can do what we want. And in

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_00] chemical drones usually used AI feature that can lock target and help pilot to hit this target. Because last miles it's very hard to control. We lose our radio control with our drone because of limitation of landscape. And this AI system help us to fly directly to

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00] target and hit this target. And that AI module...

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_03] Is that being produced in Ukraine? Or are you importing that?

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00] As I know many manufacturers of these devices create this device by themselves. They create a software. And the software work on small computers like Raspberry API or other small devices with camera. And this device analyze pictures from camera and try to find

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_00] target target and target and then send a control command directly to flight controller to operate this drone.

[00:30:36] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah, because what I'm interested in is how artificial intelligence is entering the battlefield. But from everyone I talk to it sounds like it's being tested, it's being developed, but it's not really being deployed. Am I wrong?

[00:30:55] [SPEAKER_00] This technology is deployed now and many manufacturers work on it and try to create new devices. So I think this technology is one of the most important technologies.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_00] So I think radio links, AI systems and maybe battery technologies are the future of drones. Because battery capacity is a limitation for distance. AI helps us for aiming without interaction with pilot when we have no stable connection to drone.

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00] And radio link, radio control system helps us to operate these drones when we need to fly to a special area where our target is located.

[00:31:52] [SPEAKER_03] The fiber optic, you know, this unspooling thread that can go 30 kilometers or even 40 kilometers. Who developed that? When did that start?

[00:32:03] [SPEAKER_00] This technology comes from telecommunication. It's just a fiber that usually covered other protected shell. Part of the core of the cable and next... The covering, yeah.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_03] But when an FPV, it's just the fiber optic, it has no cover. Is that right?

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_00] I try to say it again. So fiber optics in FPV drones comes from telecommunication. Yeah. So it's usual technology inside cables that bring internet to our homes. So manufacturers of fiber optics just create this big spools of these fibers without shells.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_01] Right.

[00:33:04] [SPEAKER_00] So it's usual. Right. But who had the idea to hook it up to a drone? I don't know who started this, but this technology helped us to avoid jamming.

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_03] Jamming, yeah. Are the Russians also using fiber optic?

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:33:23] [SPEAKER_03] And they're also using Starlink? And they start using Starlink, yes. Yeah. So it's kind of a race between Russian technologists and Ukrainian technologists.

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_00] I think it's competition in technologies. So if we start using some technology after some time, when our drones were heated in enemy area, they get this drone, expect all inside and try to understand how it works. And after that, start using this type of technologies in their drones. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00] So many people think that if someone talk about this public, some interview or after this information appears in public access in YouTube, our enemy after a few days start using it. It's not true because they

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_00] usually try to get our devices and understand how it works, how we can do this, analyze this. And only after that, after months, maybe they only try to use it. And if this usage is a very important thing, they try to use it. And then the people who are using it, they try to scale it.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Just the changing nature of warfare, you know, in the Middle Ages, it was swords and then bows and arrows, you know, which had a certain range. And then eventually they developed, you know, guns, rifles,

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_03] and then they developed machine guns, and the range keeps getting longer. I mean, what's the range of of a general issue assault rifle in the army? I don't know what guns you're using, but what's the range for a weapon that a soldier is carrying today?

[00:35:38] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know because our unit operates only drones. Only drones, yeah. Dr. David Pérez I think that drones, it's the highest level of revolution of all weapons.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_03] That's right.

[00:35:48] [SPEAKER_00] For now.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_03] Dr. David Pérez 400 meters for Galashnikov, okay. And now you're up to, for FBV, 10 kilometers, and for fiber optic, 30 kilometers for the heavy bomber drones, what, 60 to 100 kilometers? Is that right?

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_03] I mean, it keeps on getting broader. So in that zone, this is people have been talking about, that's the kill zone. Yes. Dr. David Pérez So, so the personnel are outside on either side of the kill zone, because to go into that zone is deadly. Yes. Dr. David Pérez Do you think that's a good thing? Because at least it creates a separation of the, of the two armies?

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00] Dr. David Pérez You mean the kill zone, it's, it's good or not so good? Yes. Dr. David Pérez And it's getting wider. So first of all, the distance between position that creates this range of kill zone dependent on current

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00] technology. So this kill zone extended by new drone technologies. So I think the distance of your kill zone is the maximum distance of drone flights. Dr. David Pérez So for now, if we drone can fly up to 30 kilometers from fiber optics. So it's a distance between position of drone operators.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_00] I think this kill zone help us to place our personnel far away from our enemy, without direction, direct contact. Right. Dr. David Pérez So it's, we have the kill zone create war of drones. Dr. David Pérez Yeah. Dr. David Pérez Not war of humans. Dr. David Pérez So drones try to hit other drones.

[00:38:02] [SPEAKER_03] Dr. David Pérez But that's better than humans. Dr. David Pérez

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Yes. It help us to save human lives. Dr. David Pérez

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. I mean, when we were starting, I said I wanted to talk because with the FPV drones, I mean, are most of the pilots looking on a screen or are some wearing headsets?

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00] Dr. David Pérez Some pilots are using glasses. Dr. David Pérez Dr. David Pérez And many pilots are using ground station with screens.

[00:38:34] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And you know, all of us in the West have watched, and I mean the West meaning in North America, I have watched videos of FPV drones. It's, you're not in direct contact, but it's a very intimate weapon because you, you identify a soldier,

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_03] you follow him as he tries to hide, and then you kill him. Dr. David Pérez That must be very difficult for the operators. And I know you said that's a sensitive topic, but can you talk at all about how that, how, I mean,

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_03] have you been a drone operator as well? I think you were like the number two or three person at Lazars, right? Weren't you very early? Dr. David Pérez

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_00] I'm from Thursday. Dr. David Pérez First day, right. First day, right. Dr. David Pérez And two years I act as a bomber pilot and I create our first drone and create first airplane.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01] That's okay. I mean, you've operated FPV drones. Is it, I mean, obviously it's easier

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_00] to operate a heavy bomber. It's just different. It's not easier. I think it's the same. Many of our pilots can operate any drones.

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_03] I don't mean difficult. I mean, difficult psychologically.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_04] No, no.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_03] Dr. David Pérez It's not difficult. Yeah. But when you see a Russian soldier saying, no, no, no, and then you…

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_00] First of all, we are military. We protect our country. We protect our civilian. Yeah. We protect our land. Yeah. So, I think all our enemies are military targets. Yeah. It's our enemy, first of all. And I think about if I see enemy soldier, I understand that it's my enemy. It's not a human.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_00] It's enemy. And they are in our land. Yeah. Of course. Dr. David Pérez It's okay for us. Yeah. We destroy everyone who tried to kill our people, who tried to kill civilians, who tried to get our land. And first of all, we protect our country. That's our main goal.

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_03] That's right. And I understand that. And I understand the ethics of that. I'm not talking about ethics. I'm talking about the psychological impact.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_00] If they stay outside our borders, they will be left. If they cross these borders and they are in our land, they are enemies. Yeah. Enemies for us. And they are targets for us.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00] That's all.

[00:41:52] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. So your pilots, it doesn't change them?

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_00] Many of our pilots think this way. And this is my position. I think it's my explanation of the situation. And I know many of our pilots think, thinking like me.

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01] Right. Yeah.

[00:42:20] [SPEAKER_03] I read that Lazar's group has destroyed millions of dollars worth of Russian hardware. Yes. I'm also interested in this system. I don't know when it started of points that you get so many, a drone operator gets so many points for destroying a tank, so many points for destroying infrastructure,

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_03] so many points for killing a soldier, so many points for wounding a soldier. What is, do you know that hierarchy of points?

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00] You asked me about the E-point system, yes? Yeah. It's a very nice system. It helps military units to get extra channel of supplying drones. So they destroy targets, they do some flights, and after that they can get another parts,

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_00] another drones to do other operations on the flights.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_03] I see. So the higher your point score, then resources are directed to you. If you have a lower point score, you may lose...

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00] First of all, it's competition for manufacturers. I see. They need to produce more effective drones. I see. ...with lower price. And military units can buy... It's like an e-shop, yes? Yeah. You can order some devices and pay for these devices by e-points. I see. It's like a visual money. It's like a visual money. I see.

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_00] So for military, it's the rating of units help to attract personnel. High quality, high skilled personnel who can operate as drones and hit targets and earn more points.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_04] Yeah.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_00] Wow, that's amazing. It's a nice system. So it helps... I think it helps drone direction to grow faster and be more effective.

[00:44:48] [SPEAKER_03] And you're originally in networking. How does all of that information get aggregated? You have an FPV drone, you kill a soldier. You have an operator.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_00] The operator uploads that to some central server? Every flight, every hitting of target information about this is sent to the system. It's a video footage, maybe pictures, description of device that's used by operator. Who, where and results of hitting all this information uploaded to the system.

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00] And after checking all of this, this target moved to account results of hitting this target. Add to points, add to account of these units.

[00:45:44] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And it's a central system for all units.

[00:45:50] [SPEAKER_00] Yes.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_03] And what's the name of that system?

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00] Armya Droni bonus. Armya Droni bonus system. Armya Droni bonus policy. Armya Droni bonus. Armya Droni. It's the first part and second part of bonus.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_03] I'm not catching the last word.

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_00] B-O-N-O-U-S. B-O-N-O-U-S. Oh, bonus. Okay. Armya Droni bonus. Okay.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_03] Yes. Yes. Yes. And who, because I'm trying to talk to Brave One, who I think developed that system. Yes. Who manages that system?

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_00] The part of the system is Brave One market. It's marketplace of drones and other devices related to drones. So, this rating helps military units to earn key points. It's like a virtual front. And after that, they spend this virtual front to order some type of drones. Yes. That's an extra channel for this unit, how they can get more drones.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_03] You're collecting tremendous amounts of data. Yes. And that data is very valuable. Is there AI involved in analyzing that data? Sometimes. Yeah. So, you have the separation of the two armies because of the kill zone. Is that primarily why the front line has not moved very much?

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_00] Sometimes, yes. Because they can't move very fast. If they try to move inside this kill zone, usually they are destroyed. Is that drone can detect this movement and after that, in real time, send this video,

[00:47:56] [SPEAKER_00] send this information to different units that can start operation to help us to destroy them. There is some movement, right?

[00:48:12] [SPEAKER_03] Moving from… From the Russian side advancing.

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. It's… We usually try to move. We try to move their personnel and they sometimes try to move some vehicles. But all this movement is well known for us because we have a lot of our drones and we can control this area. And after they fix some movement, we start to fly.

[00:48:41] [SPEAKER_00] We try to destroy all vehicles and all enemy personnel. And the same on the Ukrainian side? I think so because our enemy have the same devices. Yes. Same drones, I said drones and FPV drones and fiber optics.

[00:49:11] [SPEAKER_00] So they try to control this area too. Yeah. That's why this area is called kill zone.

[00:49:16] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. It seems, again, if the Ukrainian tech can adopt more autonomous technology and increase production, you can flood the zone just like Russia tries to overcome the defenses with the Shahid drones. You can overcome the defenses if you have enough drones.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_03] And is that part of the plan or how do you get to that level? Is it a matter of drone production? What's creating that kind of stalemate?

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00] I think, first of all, it's new technology. Yeah. It's AI. It's the future of drones. And so I think more drones. More drones than the newest technologies. Using something new. Yeah.

[00:50:18] [SPEAKER_00] And after maybe a few months, all these new technologies start understandable and well known for our enemy. And we need to invite some, we need to invent some new, some new techniques, some new devices, some new technologies.

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Do you have a big R&D department that's always trying new technology, sends it to the battlefield? If it doesn't work, they send it back. These are the problems. I mean, are you always working on new tech?

[00:51:01] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Yes. We're always working on something new, new technologies. We try to create new devices, new software, new options. And we have our own R&D. And we communicate with other manufacturers.

[00:51:20] [SPEAKER_00] And if we find some interesting devices or some interesting features that we can install in our devices, usually we start testing these features and devices on battlefield.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_00] And if we have positive results, we cooperate with these manufacturers to use these devices or technologies.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And can you give an example of what obviously you don't want to give away? It's the sensitive information. Yeah. Unfortunately, I can share this. Right. Right. But it's the same sort of progress starting with the Starlink heavy bombers moving to ISR moving to FPV. I mean, there's always some development.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_03] Is that moving very fast?

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_00] I think our success is the result of cooperation with manufacturers, with engineers of manufacturers. It's fast feedback after using real battlefields.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_00] So if manufacturers get this feedback, they understand how it works in real situations. Yeah. Not while testing maybe around Kyiv. Exactly. It's different. And they understand that they need what we need to change, changes that they need to do. Maybe some new options.

[00:53:11] [SPEAKER_00] Maybe they always know what we do and how it works in real situations.

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And they get their information from the central databank or directly from you?

[00:53:28] [SPEAKER_00] They get reports from pilots after each flight. They can get a telemetry log. They can get other information and they can get any information that they ask. Yeah. That they need. Yeah.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_03] Do you think that traditional infantry and tank warfare is finished globally with this tech? And are navies obsolete? Is the Air Force, I mean, how important is the Air Force, given that you have drone technology?

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_00] I think Air Force is very important. Very important part. I think maybe ground forces is very important because they need to keep this ground position.

[00:54:29] [SPEAKER_01] Right.

[00:54:30] [SPEAKER_00] And drones help them to protect this ground position and help to destroy enemy ground position. Yeah. So, but I think that tank, it's a past.

[00:54:42] [SPEAKER_01] It's a past.

[00:54:43] [SPEAKER_00] You don't need tanks. Yeah. Yeah. It's very expensive and it's very easy to destroy. Wow. Yeah. And drone is the future.

[00:54:53] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what I'm wondering though, is this the future for ground warfare? Or is it the future? I mean, Air Force, they're developing remote controlled fighter jets and bombers. Yes. You know, which in effect are much, much bigger drones.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_03] You're removing the human from as a target. I mean, have you thought about this or are you just waiting for the war to end and you can go back to your business?

[00:55:31] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah. I think it's the future. Big drones, unmanaged big planes. Maybe now we have a lot of different unmanaged ground vehicles. Yeah. So, yeah.

[00:55:46] [SPEAKER_03] Are you using, I saw, what was that company? The one we saw with the small unmanned.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_00] UGV. UGV. UGV. Ground platform. UGV. Right. Unmanaged ground vehicle. Right. And the company was... Termit. Right. Termit. UGV. It's one of manufacturers of ground, unmanaged ground platform.

[00:56:13] [SPEAKER_03] Are you guys using that as well?

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_00] And now we start using this type of vehicles for logistics. It helps us to move... Supply and that sort of thing. Supply to our takeoff position and so on.

[00:56:29] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. But not yet as an armed... No.

[00:56:33] [SPEAKER_00] No.

[00:56:34] [SPEAKER_03] ...unit. Yeah. And why not as an armed unit? Because...

[00:56:38] [SPEAKER_00] Our main direction is vehicles and big drones. Yeah.

[00:56:45] So...

[00:56:46] [SPEAKER_03] And you personally, what is your points? Your score?

[00:56:54] [SPEAKER_00] Your... I destroy many, many targets and do a lot of flights. And for example, in my account is 28 tanks. Wow. Yes. As a bomber pilot. Yeah. So...

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And the points system, is it per individual or is it per unit?

[00:57:18] [SPEAKER_00] It's my result as a pilot. And to the result of our unit, we can see every month as army of drones, bonus system rank. So... But... But... Last month, we was at the third place. You were first... Lazarus was first place. Third, third, third. Three. Third place. December 25th. Third. Three. Three.

[00:57:48] [SPEAKER_00] For all or only for tanks? No, no, no. Total, total, total. And that... But that... Tanks on first place. Tanks, artillery, armored machine, mining, and second place, anti-aircraft system.

[00:58:08] [SPEAKER_03] I see.

[00:58:09] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[00:58:11] [SPEAKER_03] Wow. And that's a score per unit or...

[00:58:17] [SPEAKER_00] It's a rank between all units. I see. Total, total place of rank is three. Right. Third. And in direction of separate type of targets, tanks, we are first from all units first place. Atelier, mining, second place, anti-aircraft system. Yeah.

[00:58:47] [SPEAKER_00] And armored vehicle, armored machine.

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. But I mean, is that ranking for the Lazarus group?

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_00] No, it's ranking for all military units who use drones. It's a crew of one bomber who connect batteries, yes, install munitions. It's three persons. Okay. Each... Each... Every bomber, every takeoff point, have three persons for preparing for takeoff, changing batteries.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_03] Do those three persons have the ranking within Lazarus group?

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Yes, sure. It's how many flights they prepare, how many maybe targets destroyed by drones that they prepare for operation, yes.

[00:59:49] [SPEAKER_03] Right. And then that's grouped together with all of the other Lazarus teams.

[00:59:56] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. Inside our Lazarus teams, we know the results of maybe each crew, maybe each person, result of service.

[01:00:09] [SPEAKER_03] Right. And then, but this like number three ranking, that's for Lazarus group against, as of, against...

[01:00:18] [SPEAKER_00] Against other drone units. Right. Right. It's a global rating. Right. Between all units that use drones.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_03] I see.

[01:00:26] [SPEAKER_00] Yeah, that's fascinating. Our total results of E points show us that we are one of most resultative.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_03] And that, as you said, it's feedback to the manufacturers about what's working. The unit gets more points to spend on drones, but it's also like an incentive.

[01:00:58] [SPEAKER_00] The main goal is war. First of all, we are military. We need to do our tasks. Yeah. And this E points is extra channel how to get more drones. Yeah. It's not main channel, it's extra channel.

[01:01:14] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[01:01:15] [SPEAKER_00] And this rating help us to attract personnel because then someone want to join the military, first of all, they try to understand who is the best. Right. Everyone wants to be with best unit.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah.

[01:01:29] [SPEAKER_00] So it's extra options for us. It's not main. It's a part of our service. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating.

[01:01:39] [SPEAKER_03] And so the command and control is far back, like in Kyiv or some place. Yes.

[01:01:52] [SPEAKER_00] Yes. So it's some big city.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah.

[01:01:55] [SPEAKER_00] And then Kyiv, it may be Zaporizhia, it may be other cities.

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. And you were saying there's a thousand, how many personnel in the Czarz?

[01:02:08] [SPEAKER_00] How many personnel we have? Yeah. For now it's 1,600.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_03] Right. And how much of that is, you know, R&D and command and control, how much is on the front line? Hmm.

[01:02:30] [SPEAKER_00] We have maybe R&D personnel located in each subunit. I see. So we have high skilled pilots with engineering skills and they act as R&D. I see. So they communicate to each other, they analyze every flight, they collect this information and they communicate with manufacturers. So our R&D built like this. Right.

[01:02:56] [SPEAKER_00] It's decentralized R&D because we have many, many people in different places that can get this information and communicate with engineers.

[01:03:11] [SPEAKER_03] Yeah. How many, you know, you said there are three man teams, for example, and you were saying there's a bomber unit, an ISR unit, the FPV are with the bombers or they're separate? It's separated. It's separated. So how many is in that chain of the 1,600 in Lazar's group?

[01:03:39] [SPEAKER_03] So how many are actually on the line sending drones?

[01:03:50] [SPEAKER_00] I don't know exactly, but I think crews of ISR drones operate from the battlefield near the front line and bomber pilots operate remotely. I see.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_00] So I think maybe about 30%, maybe less operate remotely. I see. And other personnel work directly near the front line, but far away from borderline in safe distance.

[01:04:29] [SPEAKER_01] Right.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_00] Right. And the crews of different subunits like ISR, HPV or bomber crews operate on different distance from borderline.

[01:04:43] [SPEAKER_01] Yeah. You're optimistic?

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_00] About end of war? Yeah. No, I'm realistic. Realistic. What does that mean? It's mean, so if we have some time for preparing for next wave, maybe. Yeah. Because I think it's for a long time.

[01:05:11] [SPEAKER_03] And is there an exhaustion among the soldiers in Lazar's group or is the morale still very high? Yeah.

[01:05:21] [SPEAKER_00] I'm in service for, from Phil's day and it's four years of service for me. Yeah. Now it's okay for me. Yeah. It's your life. It's my life.

[01:05:34] [SPEAKER_03] It's my lifestyle. Yes. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, let's leave it there. That's fascinating.